Hmmm… Isn’t that a little naive? I mean, yes, transparency is good. And if someone chooses to be transparent, I’m all for it. But, as a matter of fact, most large sports tournaments are anything but transparent. They are run by professional organisations for their own ends, and being as profitable as possible is often one of those ends.
Why would some golf tournament, or tennis tournament, or whatever allow anyone who asks to stick their nose into their financials?
If someone wants to run a pinball tournament for profit (good luck to them!), I don’t have a problem with that. If players feel the tournament is well run, worth their while, etc, they’ll attend. If they feel that the fees are too high, or the prize money too low, they’ll stay away. If someone makes a ton of money by running tournaments, it won’t be long before word gets around and other people will join in to try and make money too. And that increased competition then ends up levelling the playing field again. Market forces in action…
So, I don’t think there is any moral obligation on a tournament organiser to disclose anything. Kudos to those who do (and, obviously, it’s essential that they do for things such as charity events). But, on the face of it, why shouldn’t someone make a profit after putting a ton of effort into organising a venue, getting machines together, promoting the event, running it, and so on? I would think that they deserve to get some money for all their hard work.
I run the tournaments at River City in Harrisburg, so I thought I would chime in. Our turnouts are small and normally only have 8 - 14 people for our monthly tournaments (We need to team up with you PinCrossing guys to cross pollinate or something since we don’t overlap).
We pay out 100% of the registration fees and typically pay 1:4 players, which is normally 3 places, at 60%/30%/10%. The only thing we keep is the kitty from free games and matches. That money pays for email / website hosting, software purchases (matchplay.events), photo paper for machine placards, etc.
Our league and tournaments are 100% transparent and anyone is more than welcome to take a look at our books if they so desire.
With that said, I wouldn’t have an issue playing in a tournament where someone pockets some of the fee in compensation for their time. I can’t imagine what it would be like to run an event with tons of people. They should get something for all their work.
I don’t think it’s the right thing to do when the tournament is the size of ours, but as long as it’s communicated to me upfront, I don’t have a problem with a rake.
literally, the first line of the passage you quoted was: “I don’t think the question is whether or not someone should be allowed to profit on a tournament” and then you call me naive and go on about how they should be allowed to profit.
How would the even know if it is too high or too low? The tournament that started this discussion doesn’t even disclose the payouts. Like I said, [quote=“poopdotcom, post:60, topic:2687”]
Maybe because 70% of the players are naive to the issue because they are under the impression that the payouts are done fairly and have never placed high enough to realize that they are being used to make money for the show organizers?
[/quote]
I think that most players are unaware that this is the case. Unless the have placed in the tournament, they have no idea what the tournament is even paying (or if they will even pay the same amount the next time). Most of them probably have a naive assumption that the payout is fair. We can assume that @jdelz is one of the players that was paid out and discovered that the tournament was paying much less than one would assume.
No one is saying that there is some moral obligation for TDs to release this information. Some in this thread go to great lengths to disclose dollar amounts for all of their expenses. I commend them for that, but I do not think it is necessary.
What it comes down to is this:
I think that most pinball players take it on good faith that the payouts are fair (though some will have differing opinions on what is “fair”) and would be surprised at the %s that are actually paid out. TDs are under no obligation to disclose their financials. They’re not even obligated to disclose payout %. However, if more players knew that there are tournaments taking >50% rake, there might be more of a demand for, at minimum, a disclosure of % (unless there are guaranteed payouts). Therefore, it would behoove TDs to at least disclose the minimum amount and let players know what they are committing to.
Full disclosure for the Western Canadian Pinball Championships and DHPL Classics Tournament for the 2017 Edmonton Pinball and Arcade Expo. All prices in CDN $$$
122% Payout, next year guaranteed payout pool will be increase to over $10,000 in 2018. We make up the loss in our tournaments with corporate sponsorship, Expo ticket sales, beer garden, silent auction and merchandise sales. The Die Hard Pinball League is a non-profit society all proceeds gained from the event are reinvested back into our event next year.
I have to say that you guys run a tight ship up there in Edmonton. You have a group of really dedicated people that are committed to doing things the “right” way, and it shows in the quality and caliber of the tournaments (and show). Love that you are fully transparent and not-for-profit too.
I think that if more people made the trip and got to experience what you are doing there your future spot on the PAPA Circuit would be assured. Tough to beat Vancouver this year with such a large nearby player-base to pull from at voting time.
Keep up the good work! Already looking forward to next year…
Thanks for the kudos, we try to improve it the show every year, felt we made some great improvements to the show and to the tournament this year. It is unfortunate we took a step back by not having the resources to do the streaming, we had the all the equipment just ran out of time and manpower to get it done, something that will be rectified for next year. Not concerned about PAPA circuit would have been nice to have another recognized tournament in Canada, but all in all our tournament provides as much prizing and is just as successful as the major PAPA circuit tournaments. As long as we are spreading the word on competition pinball and people attend our event that is all that counts.
something i find so odd is that many people will go to a tournament not knowing any payout structure or guarantees at all and just keep pumping in money on entries. some of the circuit events payout less than my tournies and i get about 32 players max at my events. i take zero from the pot, not even for trophies or expenses or prizes we buy. what goes in is paid out. any “expenses” i pull from coin drop. i also pull high score per machine bounties at ROLLAPALOOZA event from coin drop, so those monies dont come from entries either. they come from our machines. Not sure if people are to apprehensive to attend in larger numbers because my venues technically have FLINT addresses, even though not in FLint …or what? machines play great, problems are fixed at once and all 100% payouts plus superb prizes on top of the cash. shoot, if we were a circuit event and had 80 players the payouts would be huge. i guaranteed 1k for first place at pinwars open and 600 classics and like under 30 players showed up…lol. also paid out other spots pretty heavy guarantees. it was guarantees plus percentage of the pot. so first paid out 1300 ish from what i recall in main and classics around 1k in the end just for 1st. to bad.
@stevevt and @flynnibus
I think you’ve been talking past each other for the most part. Both of you should realize that treating small and big events equally is the wrong idea. While small events are easier to manage, big events require a more professional approach which means usually renting a facility, an external ticket service, high quality advertisement material is expected etc… Small events usually have no sponsors, big ones do.
The major difference is that players have to search for smaller events while big events magnetize participants by the force of big prize money & natural media interest & exposure. The consequence is that you’ll face a much higher average playing strength at smaller tournaments than at blockbuster events. As a serious player who has the ability to win an event, you’re much better off having one IFPA top 50 player, an advanced player and a bye in your group than being up against 2 advanced players and a weak one. Big events draw participants who have never hear of what a drop catch is, people who are basically byes and that’s what makes your equity much higher.
As a player with positive expectation you furthermore have to realize that your equity is much higher in a big event bc you basically play 10 small tournaments at once. So in this case you can care less if the payouts are a bit reduced by compensation for labor & costs or by stealing (how ever you like to call it).
As a general guideline I expect 100% payout (IFPA fees I calculate as payout) of entry fees. I don’t like different divisions but accept it from about 100 players upwards & if prizes for A are significantly higher in A. A double disadvantage for stronger players where there’s different divisions and high ranked players have to pay an elevated entry fee, I reject.
From small events I expect a higher transparency than from big events. When big events enable whopping prizes bc they managed to find a ton of diamond sponsors I really don’t care if they made also money to pay themselves. The honey pot from sponsors is none of my business but extricating from the pool of player blood is a no no.
I hope somebody will create an app which lists and evaluates tournaments. Once it grows to a certain size it will be so influential that TDs will love to submit relevant data bc they fear a negative rating. This app can additionally suggest a tournament road trips due to players’ preferences.
Your generalizations are not really founded in anything. Small events are just as likely to have sponsors… many do be it from their venue, vendors donating prizes, angels funding the events, etc.
And you go on to JUSTIFY their differences… but that wasn’t the difference of opinion with steveVT. It was about what transparency means. He confused “common acceptance” with the idea of transparency. They are completely different things that can have similar outcomes → “satisfied participants”. Just because people are happy with the prize structure from papa that doesn’t mean they are the standard for transparency. It just means people are happy with the prize pool.
This is another off base generalization. It’s as if you’ve been to Pinburgh now and base everything off that.
Small events can be everything from the monthly at the local location bar trying to get people into playing more pinball… to the house based events between frequent competitors.
The common thing about player makeup at events tends to be about “barrier of entry”. If the event is at a convenient location, time, and duration… you are more likely to get casual players. The 3 strike at the local bar with onsite entry for $5 is far more likely to get a mix of casuals than the home based, capped event that you had to pre register for. And few noobs are going to register for events like the 24hr, Pinburgh, expo, etc because it takes foresight and commitment.
I have no idea what this is trying to say. But how do you feel about a single afternoon event at a regional pinball show? Where does that fit on your spectrum?
Ok, what I meant was that big events usually have additionally big sponsors who are not directly involved in sales of any kind at the location. These big sponsors are able to make money almost solely off media exposure. .
“I justify their differences.”
I don’t see an easy way to gently nudge tournament organizers towards transparency besides a tournament app which offers them to fill out a question catalog in order to find out how exactly prizes will be at different entry numbers. Other info, call it extended transparency, could earn bonus points maybe but is not a must.
What goals do you have besides fine prize pools?
Ofc when you investigate smaller events painstakingly you find out that there are many differences in playing strength. That doesn’t make my broad observation, expressed in 2 sentences, wrong.
“I have no idea what this is trying to say.”
If for you pinball is about making money, go for the big tournaments.
“But how do you feel about a single afternoon event at a regional pinball show? Where does that fit on your spectrum?”
Fine if they pay out 100% after IFPA fees, if it’s not too far and if that’s the best on this date.
It doesn’t matter what they pay out. So long as they either have a guaranteed prize pool or explain how they will arrive at the prize pool, a player can make an informed decision on whether or not to attend. There is nothing wrong with people making money when they throw a tourney. Techs, TDs and anyone else that makes a tourney go–why shouldn’t they get paid?
If that’s the case, who pays for the paper, ink for the printer, hosting fees for the website, cost of MatchPlay software to run the tournament, the laptop, the iPad, and I could go on and on…
I’ve never run an event more than 35 people, but you might be surprised at what it takes to get something like that going and the resources you have to pull out of your own pocket. You might also be surprised at how much time it takes to put together and run an event. Facebook events, artwork creation, game setup (leveling, extra balls, cleaning the glass, etc), emails to prospective players, scheduling with the venue, play testing the games, submitting the results, etc, etc.
Someone is doing all of that so that you can show up, have a lot of fun and potentially win money. Expecting someone to do all that for free is inconsiderate.
With that said, I pay out 100% of the registration fees (after the IFPA shakedown), but I don’t fault any TD for keeping a reasonable percentage of the fees for the people that run the event. I guarantee you that they are making pennies an hour.
There are players who invested quite some money in coin drop to learn how to play, in tournament expenses etc. and many or better said most of them don’t win anything significant. Some of these who win nothing have other sources and they can decide if they continue playing. Others have to stop or can play only occasionally. Some players screwed up their lives while chasing a dream. And a very few win something.
Most TDs won’t succeed in growing a tournament to mega size where sponsors like Ebay will knock at the door to distribute milk and honey. Very few get there.
Glen Frey’s song “Smuggler’s Blues” contains a true strophe: “I’m sorry it went down like this. Someone had to lose. It’s the nature of the business. It’s the smuggler’s blues.”
At least we might meet someday as you pay out 100%
